Transcript: Julia Gillard, Interview, Laurie Oakes
Julia Gillard
posted Sunday, 15 August 2010
E & O E – PROOF ONLY
Subjects: Economy; election costings; polls; education; NBN; campaign launch; climate change; PPL; border protection
OAKES: Prime Minister welcome to the program.
PM: Good morning Laurie and happy birthday for yesterday.
OAKES: Well thank you. Now you’ve had the blow torch applied for a few weeks now. Are you emerging a stronger and better person or is it getting to you?
PM: Oh look Laurie I’m feeling fine. I’m feeling full of enthusiasm for the final week of the campaign. I mean, I’m keenly aware that as we go into the final week, if today’s polls are right, then Mr Abbott could end up Prime Minister by the end of the next Saturday and Laurie I think that’s too big a risk, too big a risk for our $1.3 trillion economy, particularly when Mr Abbott is racing towards $30 billion of spending and what we know now is he’s spent almost $1 billion each day of this campaign and that spending would have our budget surplus. It’s too big a risk.
OAKES: And of course he claims you’re borrowing hundreds of millions every day of the campaign.
PM: Well Mr Abbott of course is going around with his slogans. I understand that but the job of being Prime Minister isn’t to invent slogans. It’s to deliver solutions and there’s –
OAKES: You’ve been pretty good on the slogans.
PM: Well, you know, slogans are one thing Laurie, but if you’re actually doing the job you’ve got to deliver the solutions and looking at the Government’s finances, the Government’s balance sheet, what Mr Abbott is standing for in this campaign is uncosted promises, spending $1 billion a day, halving the budget surplus. That’s even if his costings are right Laurie, and we’ve got every reason to assume they’re wrong. They’re full of black holes, but he won’t put them in for proper scrutiny.
OAKES: Right, I want to talk about costings in a minute but while we’re on the polls, and they’re up and down. One day you’re winning, the next day you’re losing. Is the electorate really that volatile at the moment?
PM: I think that there is still volatility out there. There’s still people making up their minds and certainly in this last week of the campaign I’ll be saying to Australians around the country, through our campaign launch tomorrow and beyond, that voting for me is voting for a strong economy, a budget in surplus, investments in schools and decent health care, and of course the continuation of the Fair Work System – no return to WorkChoices, and it’s the only way of making sure the National Broadband Network is delivered.
OAKES: One of the things the polls are consistent on is that there are variations, geographical variations, and you’re in trouble, deep trouble, in Queensland and NSW marginals, but there’s a swing to Labor in Victoria and maybe South Australia. Now why is that? Why the difference?
PM: Well I think as we look around the country there clearly some regional and state-based factors in play –
OAKES: What are they?
PM: Well look I would say I understand that in some parts of the nation there’s disappointment with the performance of state Labor governments. Of course, you know, people can form their views about their state governments, have their say in their state elections. The national election, this election is about who has the best policies and plans for the nation’s future and particularly the economic plan to manage a $1.3 trillion economy. We’ve just had a global financial crisis. There are still signs of fragility around the world. The central question in this campaign is who is better positioned to keep Australians in jobs. Make the investments in skills and infrastructure we need for the future. I’ve put out a coherent set of policies on each of those. Mr Abbott is standing with no economic plan, a list of complaints but no solutions.
OAKES: Well let’s just finish that point. You’re really saying that you’re doing badly in NSW and Queensland because the state governments there have damaged the Labor brand and you’re suffering. Is that true?
PM: Look I think there are complaints in some parts of the country. It’s just a question really of people looking at what this election is about and making sure that when they vote next Saturday, they’re voting on the issues in the national election. Single biggest of them is the state of the national economy, who made the right decisions –
OAKES: Well you keep coming back to that and one of the things that puzzles people is the economy is going very well. I mean unemployment is way down compared with other countries. We came through the global financial crisis very well. So given that, why are you in trouble?
PM: Well I think looking over this period of Government Laurie, obviously the Government was elected with a broad agenda. We had the global financial crisis to react to. We did react quickly, decisively. We invested in jobs. Not everything went according to plan and I think people are looking at the Government and making some judgements about that. But also, we need to look to the future. We did make the right judgement to support jobs. I stand by that judgement. Mr Abbott would have seen people unemployed, would have seen this country in recession with all of the heartache that brings –
OAKES: But if you were right, why don't the voters recognise that and why aren't you streets ahead in the polls?
PM: Well look the voters are looking at the performance of the Government. They’re also making some decisions about the future. My task, Laurie, is to explain what the future would be like with me as Prime Minister, and I believe I am presenting, as Prime Minister now, for re-election, with the better economic plan, with investments in skills, delivering the National Broadband Network, certainly bringing the Budget back to surplus. It’s Mr Abbott that’s jeopardising that. These are the important priorities for the future.
OAKES: Is the reason you're in trouble Joe Hockey's success in getting up debt and deficit as an issue?
PM: Well Mr Hockey obviously goes around once again with a set of complaints but with no solution. Laurie let's just take the debt issue –
OAKES: But if that's the case, the complaints obviously are striking a chord with the electorate otherwise you would be winning the election clearly wouldn’t you?
PM: Look I understand people worry about debt. I worry about debt too Laurie. I also understand that as we emerge from the global financial crisis our debt position as a nation is like someone earning $100,000 a year having a $6,000 loan. We are emerging from this with a stronger economy because we reacted to support jobs. Now that was the better choice than going into recession, and now coming out weak with the rubble of recession all around us. I made the right choice. The Government made the right choice. Mr Abbott, faced with those circumstances, would have made the wrong choice and seen us go into recession. Now the task, emerging as we are, strong from these difficult economic times, is to keep building for the future. And that requires the Budget back to surplus which is why I'm so worried about Mr Abbott's uncosted policies. It requires us to invest in skills. That's why I've put forward a big education and training policy, investments in apprenticeships. It requires us to invest in the infrastructure of the future which is why Mr Abbott this week not even seeming to understand what broadband is about, is so worrying.
OAKES: You’re about to announce a policy today on a better deal for credit card holders. What will that involve?
PM: Well Laurie we’ve been talking about debt and I've said to you I think that people worry about debt. They also worry about the debts on their credit cards. And what this policy involves is regulating so you can't go over your limit, have your credit card debt just extended unless you opt-in for that, because that obviously gives people a shock when it happens. They've run up debts over the limit. It also means when they pay down on the credit card that has to be applied first to the part of the card debt that is accruing the biggest interest, not the least interest.
OAKES: That doesn't happen at the moment?
PM: No, at the moment, credit card providers can work it out themselves and often they pay off the debts that are least troubling for people first rather than paying off the debts that are most troubling for people. And then people do shop around and look at credit cards but there's no uniform way of interest being reported at the moment. So when you’re trying to judge which credit card, you're not looking at apples to apples comparisons. We'll make sure that it is an apples to apples comparison.
OAKES: You’re launching your election policy tomorrow five days before the poll. That's more like a closer than a launch. Why so late?
PM: We thought it was the right time to be there in front of the Australian people explaining in detail my plans and policies for the future.
OAKES: Will there be new policies announced tomorrow?
PM: Well Laurie, some things I'm just going to have to be a little bit secret about for tomorrow's launch.
OAKES: Oh come on.
PM: I know you're a man who likes a scoop and to be first with the news but I can't help you with that today. But Laurie, you should expect what I say tomorrow to build on the comprehensive plans I've put out this week. I believe Laurie, in work. I believe in giving every kid a chance of getting a great education. I believe we should seize the challenges of the future, not cower in front of them. That's why this week I've put out a plan about jobs and making sure people step up to the opportunity of work, investments in schools –
OAKES: Sure.
PM: And transformation of education, and why I've reinforced my commitment to the National Broadband Network.
OAKES: Well I asked the question about whether you’re announcing new policies tomorrow for two reasons. Firstly, Tony Abbott didn't, and his policy launch was a bit of an anti-climax. Will yours be an anti-climax?
PM: Well Laurie, I’m sure you’re going to do the scorecard for me on tomorrow night’s news. I’m obviously aiming for a launch that puts before the Australian people clearly what I will do as Prime Minister if re-elected on 21 August.
OAKES: Well the second reason I asked the question about whether you’ll be announcing new policies tomorrow is that the deadline for policies to be submitted for costing under the Charter of Budget Honesty was, I think Friday. So is this your cunning way of avoiding that process?
PM: Certainly not Laurie.
OAKES: What will happen to the policies you announce tomorrow?
PM: Well let’s just do tally room and scoreboard here. Yes, the deadline to put policies into Treasury for costing was 5.30pm on Friday. We put in our policies for costing –
OAKES: But not the ones you’re announcing tomorrow (inaudible).
PM: But Laurie, let’s just be clear about this. We put in our policies for costing. I can say to you today that I have acquitted what I said to the Australian people. I have not added a cent to the Budget bottom line in this campaign and anything I announce tomorrow will be the subject of the same rules and of course we will immediately put that policy in for costing as well. Let's do the contrast with Mr Abbott, racing towards $1 billion a day spent in this campaign. Refusing to put his policies in for costing. Halving the Budget surplus on his own figures and we've got every reason to believe that those figures are wrong and littered with black holes and that's why he's avoiding proper scrutiny.
OAKES: Well certainly it’s true that you and Wayne Swan have been jumping up and down with indignation about the Coalition not putting the policies in by the deadline. But in 2007, the Labor Opposition, with you as Deputy Leader, submitted 123 policies after the deadline, only 32 before. I mean, the word hypocrite springs to mind.
PM: Well Laurie I’ll let you pick words but let me say this. There has never been a more important time to focus on the Australian economy.
OAKES: Well 2007 was pretty important too.
PM: Well 2007, we were obviously in prosperous economic times. The global financial crisis had not happened.
OAKES: And you were in Opposition so the situation is different?
PM: Well I think in this campaign the economy is more front and centre because in the last three years we've lived through the biggest global economic event since the Great Depression. And when we look to the future, I'm optimistic about the future Laurie, but there are troubling signs overseas, so it’s never been more important, never been more important than to be credible and careful about the economy. And that's why everyday of this campaign I've been out there with a better economic plan for the future, with a clear commitment about bringing the Budget to surplus in 2013, putting the policies in for costing, publishing the balances daily. Mr Abbott has taken a different approach –
OAKES: But this is not the way –
PM: He ignored scrutiny at every point.
OAKES: He's doing what you did last time. The policies that you didn't submit by the deadline for costing last time included the National Broadband Network which is a huge one; childcare centres, that's big; the Education Revolution, that turned out to be very big; and GP Superclinics. You didn't put any of these in by the deadline so how can you possibly criticise Mr Abbott now?
PM: Well Laurie I suppose we could re-fight the 2007 campaign or we could have a –
OAKES: Well you’ve been doing that with WorkChoices?
PM: Well I’ve been doing that, not because I want to re- fight 2007, but because I fear what will happen in 2010 if Mr Abbott is re-elected and as recently as May this year Tony Abbott stood up in the Parliament and reaffirmed his support for the central elements of WorkChoices (inaudible) –
OAKES: But if it was OK for you to be a hypocrite on costings three years ago, why can't Tony Abbott be a hypocrite as well, I mean, doesn't this just convince people that you're all the same, none of you mean what you say, you're all hypocrites?
PM: Well you know Laurie, maybe cynicism is fashionable.
OAKES: I don’t think it’s being cynical. I think it’s stating fact. When people watch this interview, see you carry on the way you are and I remind them what Labor said in 2007. Surely they can only reach one judgment.
PM: I think people watching this interview would say to themselves – right, 2007, where were we then with the economy? We were in prosperous times. The economy was less in focus. 2010, what are people watching this interview worried about? Well, they know that we've just been through a big global meltdown and they know that jobs were at risk. They know the Government stepped up to support jobs. They're probably thinking to themselves, gee, not everything went as well as it could have but the Government did step up and support jobs. That was the right choice. Then they look and they get the news from overseas through programs on your network and other places and they say, gee, there are still troubling signs. And in that environment, Laurie, in that environment, it's never been more important to understand economic plans for the future. That's why putting the costings in is important. It's why Mr Abbott cutting the Budget surplus, spending $1 billion a day is important. And it’s why the absence of an economic plan for the future from Mr Abbott is important. I will bring the Budget to surplus. I will invest in skills. I will deliver the infrastructure of the future, National Broadband. Mr Abbott will not.
OAKES: This is widely recognised as a pretty uninspiring campaign. I mean, two leaders who appear to me anyway to be thinking small. You both talk about not wanting a big Australia, so we've got the whole little Australia approach. I mean, why are you and Tony Abbott afraid to do something that might inspire people?
PM: Laurie I don’t want to argue with you the day after your birthday but I’m going to. I'm inspired by this campaign. I’m inspired by the differences we can make for this nation’s future. I've got a vision for this nation’s future. It's about prosperity and it’s about making sure every child gets a great education. We cannot turn to each other today Laurie and say in this country, every child from every home in every part of the country gets a great education. I want to change that. That is a vision for the future. A vision for fairness, a vision for future prosperity, because this nation will hold its head up in the world of the future based on the skills and capacities of the Australian people. That's what is in the forefront of my mind. Now you might want to dismiss that. I think that is the big vision as to where we need to go as a nation. And to build with that big vision, we need people to have the infrastructure of the future. We can't get kids a great education unless they're using the same technology as kids in Korea and Singapore and Japan. I want to give it to them. We can't get kids a great education if our health services don’t work. We can’t get kids a great education unless we’ve got a prosperous economy, we can pay for the investment, dad and mum are in work and taking a pay packet home. That’s what this election’s about. I'm passionate about it. I believe it’s full of vision. I believe it’s a vision for the future.
OAKES: The last campaign had some big themes and one of them was climate change. Now you've reduced climate change really to a citizen's assembly of 150 people, which has become a national joke. I mean, people laughing at you over that. Will you drop that idea?
PM: Laurie I’m going to disagree with you again. You're going to call me argumentative today.
OAKES: I wouldn’t say that.
PM: Our climate change policy, let's just understand what it is. Our climate change policy comes from someone who believes in climate change, comes from someone who wants to lead a national debate to make sure we’ve got the community consensus we need for a Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme and a cap on carbon pollution and a price mechanism to get there. And I will, as Prime Minister, deliver transmission lines to bring the clean energy of the future we have invested in into their homes, the national electricity grid, the electricity you and I use. I will stop us building any more dirty coal fired power stations. I will have mandatory standards so that we have a greener car fleet. I will make sure we work from greener buildings and yesterday I announced a plan to rely on the skills and capacities of our farmers so they too can be part of the solution and earning money from it. These are important policies.
OAKES: When you announced your climate change policy all that got lost because your headline announcement was this silly citizen's assembly. That's what you chose to leak to the morning newspapers to make sure it got attention. Now, I think this is one promise that voters would forgive you for breaking even before the election. Why don't you?
PM: But Laurie are you disputing with me our media strategy or are you disputing with me the breadth of the policies we're offering on change climate change? Because we're offering a wide breadth of policy.
OAKES: What I’m saying to you is, one of the things that went wrong with the Rudd Government was it was seen as all talk and no action and your big climate change policy is all talk and no action. It's a big citizen's assembly. That struck me as politically dopey, quite frankly. Why don't you dump it?
PM: Well record investments in solar and renewables happening now – action. Transmission line for the future to bring that energy to you and me – action. Banning coal fired power stations that are dirty and polluting – action. Greening our car fleet – action. Greening our buildings – action. What do we need to do next? We need to make sure there's a community consensus for the transformational change that putting a cap on carbon pollution will bring to our economy. Yep, the Citizen's Assembly will be one vehicle for taking the community through the debate. I will lead that debate. If you want to have a cap on carbon pollution in this country, there's only one candidate for Prime Minister in this election that has that aim. That's me. Mr Abbott has said – never.
OAKES: Alright. Let's move forward to another subject.
PM: I’m glad you’re moving forward Laurie.
OAKES: Of course, of course. You’ve said you were concerned about the cost of PPL when the scheme was discussed by Cabinet but are you tempted now to aim for something bigger and better in the future when the economy improves?
PM: Look, I'm aiming to bring the Budget to surplus in 2013 and I will. Mr Abbott’s a risk to that. How we build on our policies and plans will depend on our ability to finance them. And I don't make any apology for that Laurie. Strong economy, Budget in surplus, people in jobs – that's the core of everything I will do as Prime Minister if I’m re-elected.
OAKES: But in this area of PPL Tony Abbott’s offering a Rolls Royce policy and yours is a VW. Are you concerned about that? Is it a vote-changer do you think?
PM: Tony Abbott’s offering a tax on groceries, that's what he's offering. He's saying, let's put company tax up. I want to put it down. Mr Abbott says, let's put company tax up. Let's see that feed through to prices and somehow that's good for mums and dads? Well, I disagree Laurie. That's not good for mums and dads. It's not good for people who have just got a new baby in their home. It's not good for anybody in this country to see grocery prices go up, pensioners, people on low incomes. So, I will stick with the affordable scheme that we've put together. If I'm re-elected as Prime Minister, it will start on 1 January. If Mr Abbott is elected as Prime Minister, I don't know what will happen with our scheme, because he's taken the implementation money as a save, so I don't see how the scheme can start on 1 January. And then his scheme is so far into the future people will literally have whole families before it’s delivered and then you'll pay for it every time you go to the shop.
OAKES: Asylum seekers – your idea of a processing centre in East Timor seems to have bitten the dust. Do you concede that now? Is that why Steven Smith is having talks with Nauru?
PM: That’s simply not true Laurie. We are in dialogue with East Timor and, if I'm re-elected next Saturday, I will make pursuing that dialogue a high priority. Obviously, we are in Caretaker at the moment, so there is a limit to what you can do. But it will be central to what I do to achieve that solution. I will have the dialogue with East Timor and the concept here is, I don't want to see boats leaving foreign shores, desperate people risking their lives, giving people smugglers money. We can do better than that through regional co-operation, talks with a nation that is signatory to the Refugee Convention and that's East Timor. What I've said about Nauru is they're not signatory to the Refugee Convention now. They say they're interested in becoming signatory. That's a good thing. I wish every nation on earth was a signatory.
OAKES: And if they did that would you then consider them for this –
PM: Well, step at a time Laurie. They’ve said, yes, we want to become signatory. I’ve said, good thing. We will make officials available to help you with that if you seek that assistance. The process will take some time. I'm not going to park what I'm going to do while that time is taken. I'm going pursue the dialogue with East Timor.
OAKES: Couple of quick issues. The word association test. What do you think when I say Mark Latham?
PM: Unfortunately at the moment Laurie I think Channel Nine.
OAKES: Well that’s a fair cop Gov. But you were one of Mr Latham's strongest supporters when he became leader in 2003. When you were asked about his nasty language for example, you said, “I think that Mark is essentially an Australian character, a very Australian character, a larrikin Australian character and I think the Australian electorate has shown in the past that they want to embrace people who talk and look like Australians.” Now you created a monster, didn't you?
PM: Well I’m not sure I created a monster Laurie. I think that's taking it a little bit too far isn’t it?
OAKES: Well you gave him the numbers to be Leader and you hoisted him on Australia as an alternative Prime Minister. We're very lucky don’t you think that it didn't happen?
PM: Well nice story Laurie, pity about the facts. Yes, I did support Mark Latham to become Leader of the Labor Party, absolutely, that's true. And Laurie my dispute with Mark Latham today is not whether or not he uses a four letter word from time to time. That's not the nature of my dispute. What I believe about Mark Latham is some people find it harder than others to handle defeat and I think we see that on show with Mark Latham.
OAKES: But how would he have handled victory? What would Australia be like if you’d got your way and Mark Latham had become Prime Minister?
PM: Well, Laurie the nature of politics is you don't look back in time, you look forward. I think Mark Latham struggles with handing defeat and so we see the Mark Latham that we do today on your network in an ambiguous role –
OAKES: Do you think he would have been a wonderful Prime Minister?
PM: Well Laurie I can’t put myself back in that moment of making a decision right back then. We're talking a number of years ago. What I can do is I can reflect on the circumstances of today. I think Mark is someone who has found it difficult to handle defeat. I think that is why you see the Mark Latham of today and obviously in this election campaign I think for me, and for Tony Abbott, obviously it’s difficult when someone is there with such an ambiguous status. I’m happy to have hard hitting interviews with journalists every day of the week. It’s just not been clear to me in this campaign whether Mark Latham is there as a journalist or as a political combatant. That’s the problem.
OAKES: Final question, we’re out of time, but Kevin Rudd seems to be doing the right thing. Do you think that his campaigning in Queensland will make enough difference for you to hold marginal seats in that State?
PM: I think Kevin’s out there as a member of the team campaigning for the re-election of the Government. I think Kevin has affection amongst the Queensland people and so of course, him being out there campaigning is a good thing, it’s a great thing and it’s a very brave thing in circumstances where he literally came off a hospital bed to do it. I’m very grateful for it.
OAKES: Prime Minster, thank you.
PM: Thanks Laurie.
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