Transcript: Penny Wong, 891 ABC Radio Adelaide Mornings
Penny Wong
posted Thursday, 5 August 2010
JOURNALIST: Senator Wong joins us on one line. Good morning.
WONG: Good morning.
JOURNALIST: And Senator Barnaby Joyce joins us on another. Good morning.
JOYCE: Good morning.
JOURNALIST: Well apparently you two can’t have a debate but we have got the two of you together here on the ABC. Senator Wong, what is the problem?
WONG: The problem is Barnaby is not fronting Adelaide to talk about what his plans for the River Murray are. And I am very pleased that you have got him on them line. Because I am happy to debate him in Adelaide about what his plans for the River Murray are. He has said some very worrying things in terms of water policy. He suggested that returning water to the River is theft. He suggested that he wanted to go back to the days of local parochial control. These are extremely worrying signs for anybody who is concerned about the health of the Murray Darling Basin.
JOURNALIST: Well we can put that issue aside of that he won’t debate you in Adelaide because you are in Adelaide now. This is Adelaide ABC radio. Your leader won’t come on this program. We have got you and we have got Barnaby Joyce. Barnaby Joyce, what do you want to say to Senator Penny Wong?
JOYCE: Well let’s start with these two issues. First of all, the statement that returning water is theft. That is wrong. That is not correct. It is theft when you do not pay for water. When any asset that any individual owns is taken from them without payment. That creates a concerning trend, immense uncertainty, especially in the lives of people who have.
WONG: That’s not what I am talking about Barnaby.
JOYCE: Penny, you have got to to let me speak.
WONG: But you are not telling the truth, Barnaby. Nobody is doing that and that was not the context in which your comments were made. You should at least be honest with people.
JOYCE: You have been taking lessons from Craig Emerson. Especially in the life of people, you can’t take an asset off a person because they still owe the money to the bank and this is just leaves them destitute and leaves them in a wrong position.
As far as debating Penny, I have got not problems at all in debating Penny. But I must say I do find it a little bit peculiar though that I get summoned to South Australia to have a debate with Penny. And when it comes to releasing our plan, we will have our policy out. I have written a policy. It’s been costed and it’s ready to go. As far as I am concerned I would be happy to release it tomorrow. And it would definitely will be released before the election.
But it’s very hard to debate Penny about water when Penny hasn’t released the Murray Darling Basin Plan and this is the whole premise on which the debate is founded. What are we actually going to talk about? Are we going to talk about things that might be in the Plan that has never been released? This is like the Henry Tax Review, only it’s wet.
JOURNALIST: Senator Wong, if we could take that up with you. Will you sign off, will you sign off, Senator Penny Wong, on whatever the Murray Darling Basin Authority recommends?
WONG: Well I am very happy to talk about this issue because it goes to the heart of what the issue is. And can I first say, I have not just been talking about policy, we have actually been delivering outcomes for the past three years. We purchased over 800 billion litres of water to return to the River. We have rolled out infrastructure to re-plumb the Basin. And we have created an independent Authority to manage the Basin free of political interference. That was our promise.
It previously was John Howard’s promise. But it appears now the Coalition wants to abandon the independent Authority and leave this issue to the bickering politicians. That wasn’t a great success before. So it is the case I am a Water Minister who will not interfere with the independent Authority. I don’t believe that is in the best interests of the Basin, nor of South Australia.
JOURNALIST: So doesn’t that mean Labor’s policy is simply to sign off on whatever the Murray Darling Basin Authority recommends?
WONG: Absolutely not. There are a whole range of things which go to the heart of the health of the River Murray. The first is whether or not you are prepared to return water to the River; whether you are prepared to do what I have done which is to say to irrigators, ‘you are going to have to take less water out.’ Fundamentally there is only one what you can improve the health of our River and that is to take less water out. Now there is only…
JOURNALIST: But if you say you are committed to a system without political interference, which means implementing what the Murray Darling Basin Authority has recommended, shouldn’t the voters know what is in that Plan? Because the Plan has already been done and we won’t know until after the election.
WONG: Well David, can I just make a point about that. There is a consultation process under the Act that Barnaby voted for when they previously supported water reform. That process will occur after the election.
I would have been quite happy if the Authority had released its Plan prior to the election. The Authority chose that, given we went into caretaker mode before they finalised it, chose to make a decision to defer the release of the Plan. That was not a decision made by the Government. It was not a decision made by me. And what I am saying is that this is just a red herring by Barnaby to avoid fronting up and debating…
JOURNALIST: Well he is fronting up. He is on the debate now on the ABC. Doesn’t it count if it’s on the ABC? This is a – we are having a debate. We are having a debate.
WONG: What I am saying is Barnaby said he doesn’t want to come to Adelaide and debate us because the Plan hasn’t been released. And I am saying he should explain to people why he doesn’t believe returning water to the River is the right thing to do. Why he is not prepared to help…
JOURNALIST: For people who have just joined in, you are listening to 891 Mornings. This is the debate that wasn’t meant to happen. It is happening. On one line, we have got Senator Penny Wong, the Water Minister. On the other, we have got Barnaby Joyce, her counterpart. Barnaby, National Party MP, Barnaby Joyce, will you just sign off on a Basin Plan? It’s quite clear that you won’t by the sounds of it.
JOYCE: Well I’d like to see anything before we sign off on it. I mean that would be the natural thing. I think that’s what people want us to do. But let’s go through some of these issues. First of all, Penny Wong has sort of implied that I am not part of this process. I have actually voted for it twice. So I think that actually shows that I am part of this process. Secondly it was actually the Coalition that put the money on the table to actually fix the Murray Darling Basin because of inaction by Labor Party states. Thirdly, Ms Wong has said that this great retinue of action that she has had well, just north of you is the Menindee storage lakes. She has had in excess of $400 million put aside to re-plumb it. She has never done it. And whilst we have been waiting for it to be re-plumbed it has rained and filled back up with water. Now the result of that is less water for Adelaide, less water for South Australia. Because of her inaction in that area we have a problem.
The next statement that she made is that I don’t believe in returning water to the River. Well this once more is wrong because I do believe. I believe in both strategic purchases of water. And I believe in money invested to make water more efficient that returns water back to the River. Voted for it twice. So that statement is also wrong. It is one of these sort of emotive angles that Ms Wong has and that the Labor Party has to pop up in the middle of the night and say that these people won’t engage when actually it’s all about them not doing anything.
JOURNALIST: But Barnaby Joyce, if you have an independent Authority and if you support that, then doesn’t that mean that whatever they decide you have to cop it? And the same for Penny Wong.
JOYCE: Well what happens if they say that everything is fine? I mean I don’t know what is in the report. You have got to also give some angle to the democratic process and the right of the people who elect the Government. I mean if they elect the Labor Government, if they elect our government, there is actually, there has got to be some oversight. I always get a little bit uncertain and the Labor Party have done this before…
JOURNALIST: But isn’t that the whole part of having an independent Authority? To take it out of the hands of the politicians who stuffed the River for over, well over 100 years?
JOYCE: But we have got to have also referral back to, you know, the appropriate authority. There is great weight in what they say. There is no doubt about that. But the Labor Party have also got this policy – you have got 150 randomly selected people for the environment policy which is actually Penny’s portfolio. And you must be very confounded about the job that Penny is doing. But you know, I just don’t believe that. I believe the Government is elected to govern.
WONG: Last week, Barnaby launched the campaign of Michael McCormack who is the Nationals candidate for the Riverina. Now this is a bloke who overturned the Coalition policy for a referendum on water. This is a guy who says that the Murray is nothing more than, and I quote, “a feel good political cause.” This is the man who says, and I quote, “the Coalition don’t want to see anything taken away from irrigators in the Murray and Murrumbidgee.”
I mean, Barnaby, is that the indication of the Coalition policy that you, if elected, would be implementing?
JOYCE: Oh that’s just, I mean I can and other candidates have said that you know, that I inspired the referendum. I mean, look, because Michael McCormack in Wagga Wagga says that, you know, makes a few statements in his electorate, Penny do I now go around to every person in the Labor Party and…
WONG: You launched his campaign.
JOYCE: Do I go around and say that every statement made by somebody in the Labor Party is now your statement?
WONG: So does that mean Barnaby that you happy to reduce water...
JOYCE: This is a very peculiar form of debate that you have.
WONG: Let’s be clear. Are you happy to reduce water to irrigators in the Murrumbidgee?
JOYCE: Now you can’t just talk over the top like that all the time.
JOURNALIST: Barnaby Joyce, you put your question and we will put it back to Senator Wong as well.
JOYCE: This is a very peculiar form of debate that Penny has which is, you know, association equals assertion equals a fact. Just because somebody who is proximate to you says something doesn’t mean that you necessarily believe it. Otherwise I would be saying that everything that is said next to Penny on the left and the right of her in the chamber is actually Penny’s ideas. It’s just crazy.
JOURNALIST: Okay can we put this to you. Senator Joyce, do you agree that there has to be a big reduction in the amount of water that irrigators from New South Wales and Victoria take from the Murray Darling Basin system? Do you agree with that proposition?
JOYCE: And there is a process in place doing that. We actually formulated the process. The buyback process and the re-plumbing process.
JOURNALIST: So that’s a yes. You agree that that has to happen?
JOYCE: There has to be water that’s put back in the River. Yes, I agree to that. And I not only that, I am part of the process and I actually voted for it.
JOURNALIST: Do you have any idea how much water needs to be returned to the system from irrigators in those two states – New South Wales and Victoria?
JOYCE: Now this where it does come to. We need to see the Basin Plan. We have got to see the science. We have got to see everything. We have to the capacity to grab this information, get it back to key interest groups, get it back to, you know, alternative sources, get it analysed, have a look at it. That is why we need the Plan. You can’t…
JOURNALIST: Let’s put that question to Penny Wong. Do you agree that a large amount of water needs to be returned to the Murray Darling Basin from irrigators in New South Wales and Victoria?
WONG: I have been upfront with irrigators about that.
JOURNALIST: How much water?
WONG: And that is what the Basin Plan is working through.
JOURNALIST: How are our listeners going to make any sense out of what either of you are saying if this Basin Plan, this crucial document will not be released to the public? How are our listeners meant to make any sense out of what either of you are saying?
WONG: Well what I was saying was I have been upfront with irrigators about that. The difference between me and Barnaby is what he is saying now is not what he said for months and is not what he is saying to people upstream.
JOURNALIST: Senator Wong, Senator Wong, up until four weeks ago, you were supporting a Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, who said that climate change was the biggest moral imperative facing the country. That has all been junked.
WONG: Oh come on. We can have a discussion about that if you want an interview on that. But I think the issue we are talking about today is water. And I have been upfront with irrigators in New South Wales and in Victoria and also in Queensland; that we are going to have to reduce the take on the River. Some people have not liked that.
The difference between me and Barnaby, is that that is not what he is telling people upstream. That is not what his colleagues are telling people upstream. And he is using the fact that the Authority has chosen to hold the Basin Guide, for the period of this election as an excuse to not debate the real issues here, which are whether, fundamentally, you are prepared to purchase water and you are prepared to say to people up and down the River, ‘yes we need to take less out of the River.’
JOURNALIST: He has just said that, has he not?
JOYCE: I’m prepared for – I don’t know how many times I have to say this Penny. I am prepared for water to be purchased. I believe in the re-plumbing of the Basin. I believe that water has to be returned to the system. Okay so there you have it.
And Penny, you took 18 months, 18 months to get this Murray Darling Basin Authority together. Why did you take so long? And now that you have taken so long to put it together you are now blaming it for not releasing the Plan.
Penny it’s your fault. It’s your department. You have got to accept responsibility for the things that happen in your own department. You can’t just keep fobbing it off to other people.
WONG: If I can respond. And that simply is not true. We appointed the CEO of the Authority a few months after we got an agreement with the states; an agreement that was never achieved under your government. You and the Coalition moved amendments to the Act which meant we had to change the structure of the Authority and that did add to the delay. But it is not the case that it took 18 months. We appointed the CEO of the Authority not long after we got final agreement with the states; the agreement that you never achieved.
Now I am happy to debate the issues that you think are up for grabs here. But I think the issue here, Barnaby, is what you say one day on Adelaide radio is not what you tell people in the Riverina. It’s simply not.
JOURNALIST: Barnaby Joyce, do you have a downstream message and an upstream message? That seems to be the core of what Penny Wong is saying.
JOYCE: No that’s – just look at how she’s actually gone, how Ms Wong’s actually gone about this. She has announced – you’d have to suggest in a slightly parochial form, sort of demanded for me to go to Adelaide. And so I would suggest that is very strongly scripted downstream, not just downstream, you know, a message to try and entice a vote around Adelaide. I can understand it. That is a political purpose, Penny, not a water purpose that you have entertained this debate and the mechanism that you’ve gone about it. Especially when you have a thing like the National Press Club and there is also, you know, other sections of the debate.
If I did the same thing and said, ‘I demand that Penny comes to St George for a debate,’ you would say there is nothing in that except a political statement. So you have to see that other people see the method that Penny Wong has gone about, as a political motive rather than a water motive.
WONG: Are you going to come to Adelaide...
JOYCE: As far as upstream and downstream messages go, I have been consistent. Penny is claiming that I say that returning water to the system is theft. I do not. I say that if you take an asset off an individual without paying for it, that is theft. And I think that is a fair enough statement. That is a statement I have been saying up and down the Basin and now I am saying it on Adelaide radio. And I stand behind that. I think that most sane people would say that you cannot go into a farmer’s place, leave them with a debt that they have to pay to the bank manager, leave them with the depression and the pressure. All this sort of, you know, because these people don’t make a lot of money. They’re not like rich Australians. Some of these people are doing it very, very tough. And I want to treat people fairly.
JOURNALIST: You’re listening to 891 Mornings. This is a debate that wasn’t meant to happen. It is happening. You have on one hand, Senator Penny Wong, and her counterpart, Senator Barnaby Joyce. We are discussing the thing that matters, we know, to you, the 891 audience, and all South Australians, and that is: our Murray, our water.
Barnaby Joyce, if I could just put this to you. About a year ago or so, I went to the Lower Lakes with a group of irrigators, eastern state irrigators. And I’ve got to say, they walked away very unimpressed. They thought that there was just a big evaporation pond. And there was no more merit in the Lower Lakes than there is with any other lagoons and lakes along the system.
What commitment can you give people in South Australia who are at the bottom end of the Murray Darling system that you will do everything possible to return those lakes to their environmental glory?
JOYCE: Well obviously we’ve got the big issue of the amount of water and how we actually get around the system. Now we are going to have to, if we want water in the Lower Lakes, we have to make sure we find savings in other places. This is why the redevelopment of such things as the Menindee storage lakes is vital. But it never happened. Obviously if you want to give water to the Lower Lakes, the closer you get to the Lower Lakes the more likely you are to arrive there. Therefore you are going to have the trade-off between the economic viability of upstream as opposed to the freshwater Lower Lakes below.
I do understand the sentiment that is held by some. They say well, you know, this as an issue requires a lot of water. There is a lot of water that evaporates from the Lower Lakes, freshwater. It’s water that Adelaide could otherwise be using. And that is the reason that there is some disquiet held in certain areas. And I know that …
JOURNALIST: Areas upstream?
JOYCE: Well if Adelaide doesn’t get water it’s disquiet by Adelaide too. I mean, the point is, that this is an issue that is probably the crux of it. What is the trade-off between the Lower Lakes, the economic viability of people upstream, and the capacity of Adelaide to get water? I mean, we all agree that there is not enough to go around for all of them to be maintained in perpetuity. Water has got to go. Now we are buying water back…
JOURNALIST: So are you saying, Barnaby Joyce, you would perhaps be prepared to trade off the Lower Lakes in return for irrigation water?
JOYCE: I’m just saying where we are at the moment, it’s unsustainable. The Lower Lakes are actually lower than the sea. So we are buying water to send downstream. We are re-plumbing. But whether that actually fixes the problem, I don’t know.
JOURNALIST: Do you think we should flood the Lower Lakes with sea water?
JOYCE: No I don’t. I don’t.
JOURNALIST: What do you think we should do? Just let them dry up?
JOYCE: Well the problem is, how are we going to do it? How are we going to mitigate the issue…
JOURNALIST: But isn’t that your job? Don’t you have to find an answer to that problem?
JOYCE: Well they’re talking right now in such areas as the Coorong, letting some sea water into the hyper-saline situation at the top end. These are the sort of discussions, the hard discussions that are going to have to be had. And I don’t think the way to have them is for Ms Wong to, you know, ring up one night and say, ‘I demand that there be a debate in Adelaide.’ I mean, what is, what’s the solution from Penny?
JOURNALIST: We appreciate you both having the debate on 891 Mornings and our listeners will as well. Senator Wong, you might like to have a closing statement and one for Barnaby Joyce.
WONG: Well look I want to respond first to one thins which is the assertion that my request or my challenge to Barnaby to actually set foot in South Australia during the election campaign was somehow parochial. Now I’m happy to debate water in many places. I have fronted up to irrigators upstream and I have put to them my views about what the Government is doing to them.
I think it is quite extraordinary that Barnaby is essentially saying to South Australians, ‘I don’t think I need to come to Adelaide and tell you what my water policy is. I think it is parochial for me to have to come to the city that is so dependent on the River Murray.’
I can tell you in terms of what a re-elected Gillard Government will do. We will continue to do the work we are already doing. We will continue to ensure that the independent Authority puts in place a Basin Plan with a cap that’s based on science for the first time. We are not going to be dictated to by vested interests up and down the River. We will continue to purchase water, as we have already – 800 billion litres of water.
It is extraordinary today that Barnaby now is changing what he said previously on that. And we will continue to try and return the Basin to health.
JOURNALIST: And Barnaby Joyce, in this debate on water on 891 Mornings, your final remarks?
JOYCE: Well I recollect the time that Ms Wong came to St George and she did not even inform the Mayor that she was about to turn up. It was a complete and utter farce. You had to submit questions to her beforehand for her approval as to whether…
WONG: (Laughs ) That is not true.
JOURNALIST: Hang on, I think this is his closing statement, Senator.
JOYCE: She snuck around town and then she had the hide to say that I won’t come to Adelaide when actually I’ve been there innumerable times. I admit that they were before they called the election but we all know we were in a de facto election period. There are other places also in South Australia. Berri being one. Why didn’t we have the debate there? Mildura. I’m only too happy to have the debate. I’m looking forward to the debate. It’s just completely constricted because Penny has not released the Murray Darling Basin Plan. We have no idea what we are actually debating.
JOURNALIST: Senator Barnaby Joyce, thank you for talking to 891 Mornings. And Senator Penny Wong, thank you for talking to 891 Mornings.
WONG: Good to speak with you.
Tags: Adelaide, Australia, Murray, Penny, South, Water, Wong