Transcript: Wayne Swan, Interview, ABC Radio National
Wayne Swan
posted Thursday, 2 September 2010
E&OE
SUBJECTS: Coalition costings; forming an effective and stable government; National Accounts; success of stimulus; Building the Education Revolution
TREASURER: Good morning Fran. It’s good to be with you.
KELLY: The release of the Treasury costings last night, Tony Windsor has said there’s a black hole in the Coalition’s costings of somewhere between $7 and $11 billion. How do you read the numbers?
TREASURER: Well, as I understand the numbers, Treasury has found that there is a $10.6 billion black hole in claimed savings from the Coalition of $11.5 billion. Now Fran, I think this is either deliberate dishonesty, or incompetence, or both.
KELLY: Well, the Coalition, not surprisingly, is standing by its numbers, and let’s hear the Opposition’s Finance Spokesman, Andrew Robb on that.
ROBB: On the Areas that they found a problem it is a matter of a difference of opinion, it’s not a matter of error. On 96 per cent of our costings, the Treasury ticked off.
KELLY: It’s a difference of opinion?
TREASURER: No it’s not Fran. I mean, that is just dishonest. If you just go through some of these costings that the Treasury found – they found a problem with their NBN savings of $900 million. They said it was inappropriate to claim $2.5 billion in savings from getting rid of the Conservative Bias Allowance. They found that they’d under-costed their paid parental leave scheme. Look, the list just goes on-
KELLY: Sure but-
TREASURER: These are not errors; these are mistakes and deliberate dishonesty because these matters were debated at the time. They were debated at the time because the Coalition was deliberately deceptive in the presentation of their policies.
KELLY: Okay, but let me quote for you from Treasury, the Treasury assessment notes that went with these costings last night, quote: ‘There were no significant differences between the costings for the vast majority of policy proposals’ – we’re talking about the Coalition policies – ‘Several of the differences in the Coalition’s and the Departments’ costings reflect different models and data’. That’s not saying they were dishonest. They’re saying that’s a matter of opinion.
TREASURER: No it is not a matter of opinion. You see, the Coalition refused to participate in the Charter of Budget Honesty process. We went through that because the Treasury is the body that has the appropriate qualifications and experience to make these judgements. What they did was to run off to an independent accounting firm, they said, which turns out to have close links with the Liberal Party. They set out to deliberately deceive the Australian people and the verdict is in from the Treasury - a $10.6 billion black hole in claimed savings of $11.5 billion.
KELLY: Alright. Let’s go now to the deal between Labor and the Greens signed yesterday. The Greens MP in the lower house, Adam Bandt, was always going to support Labor in the Lower House. Why did you need a piece of paper, a signed deal, with the Greens?
TREASURER: Well, because we need an effective and stable Parliamentary majority, and the Greens are part of that. But we are talking to the Independents as well. We believe that we are best placed to form a stable and effective Government that can provide strong economic management. It’s very important in terms of certainty, and on that basis we had the talks with the Greens and reached that agreement.
KELLY: This deal cements Labor being in partnership with the Greens. Business and mining groups, and some country voters, are nervous of the Greens’ agenda. Are you concerned this could damage your chances of getting the country MPs on side?
TREASURER: No I’m not concerned about that, what I’m concerned about is the national interest. What I’m concerned about is effective and stable Government. We are having discussions with the Independents as well, and we are talking to them about how we can best achieve the certainty that the country deserves. You see, we respect the election result, and the election result means that there is a responsibility on political leaders to work effectively with the Independents and the minor parties, and that’s what we’re doing.
KELLY: Well, will this model, this agreement with the Greens, will it be the model for any agreement you’d like to reach with the Independents? Will you be going for a signed agreement with anyone else that will support you?
TREASURER: Well, I can’t predict the outcome of the discussions that we are having with the Independents, but we are having discussions…
KELLY: If it’s less than that though it will look as though you’ve got less of an agreement with them than you would have with the Greens.
TREASURER: Well, I can’t predict the outcome of those discussions Fran, but we’re entering those discussions and taking part in those discussions in good faith with the national interest in mind.
KELLY: Tony Abbott calls this deal with the Greens ‘a Coalition’ between Labor and the Greens. What do you call it?
TREASURER: Well, Tony Abbott is just desperate. What I call it is an agreement which will assist in providing stability in the Parliament and strong and effective Government. I think it’s just common sense.
KELLY: So you’re not nervous of being perceived as being in Coalition with the Greens?
TREASURER: No, not at all. I mean, I think the country understands that neither major Party has a parliamentary majority either in the House of Representatives or in the Senate. And given the election result, what they expect us to do is to get on with the job, and that’s what we’re doing, and providing leadership in doing that.
KELLY: And let’s go to the GDP figures now, released yesterday. The growth figures are very strong, back to levels last seen before the GFC. If Labor manages to form a Government, will you now withdraw the remaining Government stimulus? It’s clearly not needed.
TREASURER: Well, that’s not true Fran, the remaining stimulus is currently being withdrawn and it subtracts from growth-
KELLY: There’s billions of dollars worth of money still to be spent, even committed in the Building the Education Revolution spending.
TREASURER: Well, that’s not true either Fran. Most of the money-
KELLY: $5 billion not spent yet, isn’t it?
TREASURER: Most of the money in the Building the Education Revolution is committed and being spent-
KELLY: Not all of it. You could stop some of it, couldn’t you?
TREASURER: 97 per cent of it, I think, is the figure Fran. And that’s a good thing because that is providing a pipeline of work and employment in a very important area of the economy which is still relatively weak. In fact, these figures yesterday confirm the wisdom of the Government’s strategy to stimulate the economy in the way in which we did and then to gradually withdraw stimulus, which is what we’re doing. And what you see in the figures yesterday is a broad economic recovery, not just in mining but more broadly than that. And you are also seeing the return of private investment which will take the place of the withdrawn public investment such as the BER. In fact, the plan we put in place to deal with the global recession and to return the country to growth has been endorsed, if you like, by the figures that you see in the National Accounts yesterday.
KELLY: Most economists endorsed the policy decisions the Government took at the time but in hindsight, given how fast the economy is growing now, how quickly the Reserve Bank had to move to return interest rates to more normal levels last year, in hindsight most economists – I’m wondering if you agree with them – think that the massive fiscal stimulus package especially the second tranche was not necessary at that level?
TREASURER: Fran, I’m sorry, most economists don’t think that. Most economists think that the Government got it about right. There will always be a debate about the size, but I think most economists agree that the size of the second stimulus package was what was needed, and the size of that package is what explains the difference between the outcomes in Australia and the outcomes in many other advanced economies. What we did put in place was one of the most effective fiscal stimuluses in the advanced economy world. That was very important, and these figures yesterday demonstrate the importance of that because we are not wading through the rubble of recession as we go about returning to above trend growth.
KELLY: How frustrating is it for you as Treasurer that, as you say, we are not wading through a recession, we’ve outperformed in terms of growth every other economy in the developed world, but the voters just haven’t given you marks for that at the polls? You’re on the brink of losing Government.
TREASURER: Well Fran, I respect the decision of the Australian people. But we did have a very substantial economic debate during the campaign and that is a debate I believe we prevailed in, but there were many other issues in the campaign as well. But what the figures demonstrate yesterday is that we did get the settings right. We got the biggest economic decision taken in this country since the Great Depression right and Tony Abbott and the Liberals got it wrong, and we can see in the costing debacle today just how bad their economic judgement is and how unqualified they are to run the economy.
KELLY: Wayne Swan thank you very much for joining us on Breakfast.
TREASURER: Thank you.
(Ends)